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Dr. Joseph Gonzales, tireless advocate for Malaysian dance, shares his hopes for greater abundance and more critical practice research, with dance critic Bilqis Hijjas.
This essay was completed under the ArtsEquator Fellowship. It was first edited and published by Eksentrika. The audio version of this interview is available for listening, through Eksentrika’s Spotify account WIP Arts & Culture Conversations.
Bilqis
Hello, my name is Bilqis Hijjas, and today I am catching up with Dr. Joseph Gonzales – dancer, choreographer, artistic director and educator. Joseph has recently returned to Malaysia after many years of living and working abroad. And although he is ostensibly now retired, he has never been one to rest on his laurels. So I’m wondering what he has in store for the dance community in Malaysia. Dr. Joseph, how long have you been back in Malaysia?
Joseph
Well, I arrived on the 31st of August. It’s a very auspicious day I selected to leave Hong Kong and to arrive back home. So in a sense, you know, it signifies liberation. I am so happy to be home. You know, I’ve missed certain things, certain quirkiness that you find only in Malaysia where you go to a shop and immediately you’re an uncle or an auntie. In Hong Kong, I had to work very hard to get those kinds of connections with sort of random people.
Bilqis
You were in Hong Kong for eight years? And what were you most excited about when you first went there?
Joseph
Arriving in Hong Kong at the age of 55 with a backpack and some suitcases reminded me of being 25 and being in the UK and walking around with a backpack and suitcases and, you know, just that sense of adventure! And I patted myself on the back for saying that I still have the courage to go out and do something and leap into the unknown that I had when I was 25. At that time, there were not so many dancers in Malaysia, in the eighties. And, you know, I was getting a lot of work and people knew who I was, and who my friends were. You know, we were on television, we were doing Kuala Lumpur Dance Theatre, we were doing all kinds of things. And… kind of the bee’s knees, you know? That yearning to push yourself to go into the unknown, to see how you really stand and compare against, you know, the best of [the world]. In a very similar way, going to Hong Kong made me feel like that again. It’s like, okay, I’m testing the uncharted territory once again. And to try something that I hadn’t tried before, you know, so… And to have that opportunity to do it, I leapt at it, you know, I didn’t think twice. That excitement of being in Hong Kong was, you know, that freshness, you walk with…there’s something different in your step—
Bilqis
It’s such a buzzy, energetic city—
Joseph
It is, it is, it really is. It’s so exciting.
Bilqis
What did you find personally was the most challenging thing?
Joseph
I think work was very, very challenging because I went into an environment where the college was very well established.
Bilqis
You were teaching at the Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts. Initially, you went in as—
Joseph
Program leader.
Bilqis
Program leader.
Joseph
And I think it took time for me to learn the work, to learn the job, to understand how it’s done, how the different committees work. It took time to gain the confidence of my colleagues as well, that I knew what I was doing and that they could trust me, even though I was dean at ASWARA [National Academy for Arts, Culture and Heritage, Malaysia] for 18 years. But Malaysia really is very much under the radar, even though we have so many wonderful Malaysians who went there to study.
Bilqis
What were the major changes in that institution at the time that you were there? I mean, there were the street demonstrations, there was Covid. What was the influence of that on HKAPA?
Joseph
The social unrest. That was a shocking time for all of us. You know, we’re getting messages on WhatsApp, you know, where to stay away from which station is closed. And we had to suddenly stop the classes and send the students home. So there was a lot of anxiety, and we struggled to balance delivering the education and the students’ wellbeing in that period of time. I really am amazed at how we survived that and how we actually very, very quickly, I mean, moved to teaching online. And this was all new to us at that time. Nobody had even heard of Zoom at that time, right? So we were given classes. We were taught how to present our lectures. So there was a lot of discussion and learning happening simultaneously while the riots were going on.
I myself was caught in one of the demonstrations one day. Very foolishly, I didn’t bring my phone, and I walked to the supermarket or something. And on the way back, I was confronted by a street full of people clad in black and chanting. And then I turned around the corner, wanting to go the other way. And then there were the police coming on the other side and shooting tear gas onto the street.
And so I got hit by the tear gas, and my eyes were tearing, crying – like, a white-haired old man bending forward in the middle of the street. I felt an arm on my shoulder, you know, and I panicked. I froze. I thought, okay, somebody’s going to hit me now! You know, it was a very, very wonderful, kind Hong Konger who reached out and gave me a bottle of water and gave me a towel and, you know, brought me to the side of the road so that I’d be safe. It was so real. It was right there at your doorstep. And there were students also involved in the social unrest. And, of course, they felt they had to say something about their city.
Bilqis
So if you started teaching on Zoom, then does that mean that when Covid came, you were already ready for it?
Joseph
Yeah, [laughing] that was clever, very expert. And then Covid was just completely unexpected. And, you know, Hong Kong, because of their N1H1 and all that they had had before, the bird flu, they were so strict – and we had to do three weeks quarantine in a hotel if we left the country. Yeah! So I didn’t leave Hong Kong for three years because it was ridiculous to think that you’d go and stay in a hotel for which you had to pay for yourself.
That was very disruptive to education. But we managed somehow, you know, that nobody actually was held back because they didn’t meet the standards. You know, the students are so dedicated. They would practice on their own. They would practice in their small living spaces—
Bilqis
Presumably even smaller than anything that would be available in Malaysia!
Joseph
Yeah, totally, totally. And, you know, we had to consider a lot of different factors that they didn’t want to reveal, many of them: where they were living, what kind of homes they were living in — because it is very personal and maybe not something that they are very proud of. So we had to ensure, give them the trust that we would not betray any kind of privacy and so on. So if you can imagine somebody sitting on a bed and doing some homework, and you can see that the clothes are hanging above their heads—and this is very normal in Hong Kong. It was a tough time.
Bilqis
Now that you’re back in Malaysia, what things do you feel have changed here in the time that you’ve been away?
Joseph
I think it’s difficult, Bilqis, because I think we are not working hard enough, or maybe we are being too challenged by trying to create a healthier professional environment. I still feel that that is very lacking in Malaysia, especially if I compare it to Hong Kong, a very small city of 7.5 million people. But they have three very large dance companies that receive the bulk of the government funding for performance. And the funding that they receive is then matched by private organizations that are all hungry to jump on this bus, you know that, and, “Come. I want to give you money! Oh, make a show with my name on it!” You know, you’ve got all kinds of people that are desperate to have their name attached to performing arts groups. A simple example would be Hong Kong Ballet doing Balanchine’s Jewels, right? And so a big jewellery company, Van Cleef, will come up and say, “We want to be a part of this show.”
So I don’t see enough of that happening here. With more and more schools and institutions being established that have dance programs and theatre programs and so on, I’m not seeing a parallel growth in professional performing arts groups, which I think was also the problem eight years ago when I left.
Line and Dots, choreographed by Surjit Nongmeikapam, in Tabula Rasa, 2024. IMAGE: LH Tang
Bilqis
I feel that I have observed a kind of plateauing in the development of the dance community.
Joseph
Yes, I will agree with you.
Bilqis
So you left Hong Kong as a professor of graduate studies and now you’ve come back to Malaysia as artistic director of ASK Dance Company [ADC]. And you are also working with Taylor’s University.
Joseph
So I’m working with Taylor’s primarily through the company. So this is a very exciting opportunity filled with great potential for Taylor’s, with their idea to work with the industry right from the beginning, and to have theatre—and now dance and voice—being offered to their students and being taught by professionals. So this is, in principle, a great idea. So I think there’s a lot of potential there for growth and also for internationalization. Because it’s a private university, I think they are able to attract maybe students from across the world.
I mean, so I’m not employed by Taylors, so that’s… I must say, quite clearly. So it’s ADC that’s employed by Taylors. But I said, you know, I’m coming from an institution that has 16 dance studios with sprung floors and a Pilates room and all those kinds of facilities for dance and technology, black box theatres… We need to really up the standards, you know; facilities are so important. And that is the brilliant thing about Hong Kong. You know, the government and the school, they spare no expense in, you know—the minute that the floors are not, you know, up to standard, they change the floors. [They have the] Best sound system, everything that you can imagine.
And this is not [even] talking about all the scholarships that the students get. Almost everyone is on scholarship, both local and international. So they are really nurturing the students and their journey. You know, we spent millions and millions of dollars in student-led programs that the student can choose. And if they get accepted, for example, to, let’s say, an NDT summer school, they can apply to the college for money to go. And so everyone gets about RM5000 to RM10,000 to go for a summer program for two weeks. And you know what? It’s like—transformative.
So it’s not just facilities, but it’s all these kinds of scholarships made available and the networking that Hong Kong is able to provide for the students. You know, they’re just hungry to create opportunities. Whether there is a certain kind of an ulterior motive or there is a certain importance of being seen to be doing something that is very agreeable to mainland China, ultimately, the students are still benefiting from it.
You know, we have a population of 35 million, 36 million in Malaysia. We have so many universities providing dance and theatre degrees and so on, but we don’t have anything close to this kind of support. So all the government funding seems in Malaysia goes to the government organizations like the JKKN and the Istana Budaya and so on. So Hong Kong doesn’t have one of those things, you see, so they actually are giving it to the people.
Bilqis
So let me ask you about ASK Dance Company. When you first set it up in 2011, it was part of ASWARA. It was sort of like a graduate dance company where the best of the graduates from ASWARA would go into this training company, which was intended to be a sort of transition for them to then move into professional dance practice. But later you split it from ASWARA, so it became an independent entity – ASK Dance Company. What was your ambition for it at the time that you did that?
Joseph
You know, you read the situation well, I think. We were, at the time, just developing the degree program. So we instituted the degree program in 2008. So we’ve got kids doing arangetrams, we’ve got national solo ballet champions, we have Chinese dance champions. And I’m like… And we have reconstructed and revived all this Malay dance that people didn’t even know existed, you know, the Terinai, the Tari Inai repertoire, the Joget Gamelan repertoire, so on.
And then I was thinking about myself when I was a student at Federal Academy of Ballet, you know, stars in our eyes—hungry, hungry, hungry, but not really possessing this kind of training. You know, we had training, of course; it was good at that time, but we didn’t have this kind of training. And then I thought that if people were desperate to go overseas to hone their talents and to find work with the training that we had at that time, what more could be achieved with the students who had this kind of training?
So that was my ambition, that there would be a place for them to work here in Malaysia in high quality productions. You know, the Crossing Borders in Bharatanatyam, and the Three Faces and some incredible contemporary work, and then also finding opportunities for them to pursue their studies.
[But at the time] you’ve got Yunus [Ismail] and Khairi [Mokthar], who went to dance with Shobana Jayasingh, and [Liu] Yong Sean goes to Korea and joins the National Contemporary Dance Company. These were all unheard of. And Raymond [Liew] actually performed in Rite of Spring for Pina Bausch. Insane! So I wanted more of that, and I still do—except I think we haven’t even come close to that kind of heyday, you know. When I look at what I’m seeing now, I’m like, people seem to be very happy doing what they do. That kind of hunger…I think it’s a little bit different. I think the Gen Alpha, as they call now, you know, all they want to do is work hard for one project and then figure out where to have a break. Where are we going on holiday?
Bilqis
What do you want to do now with ASK Dance Company?
Joseph
Very good question. I think we want to do, and I want to do, more of what we are doing, which is the outreach program. The Forging Traditions is something that I hold very, very close to my heart. And I want to continue doing that for as long as I can do. Knowing very well that Sime Darby [Foundation] has been really a guardian angel of that project, but I know that they can’t do it forever. They’ve already done it for 14 years or so, 13 years. And I’m very grateful. We’ve taught 25,000 people and counting. I mean, that’s crazy, right? Giving them a taste of what traditional dance is. It’s not only about ballet or so on… and to also break down those barriers. It’s about anybody who can do any kind of dance.
So even if at some point I have to do it on my own [without Sime Darby Foundation’s support], I will. Maybe I won’t do ten [workshop sessions] per year. Maybe I’ll just do one. But I still want to do it with the company. I’d like to build a real… strengthen the stable of dancers that we have. I mean, Imran [Syafiq] and Kimberly [Yap], bless them, they’re so amazing. But they are in their early thirties already… Kimberly—incredible—has got this new opportunity to work with Akram Khan and Maven Khoo—
Bilqis
Imran is the managing director, and Kimberly is the assistant managing director. And they’ve been there for how long?
Joseph
Full-time since they graduated in 2015. And I want them to keep pushing themselves. So I think last year, artistically, we saw Imran come up with this Nadi, which I thought was really beautiful. And now Kimberly doing this other thing. And Zul[karnain Zuber] is really interested in choreography. So I want to continue to encourage that. He’s got that Kinosaki Prize for next year. So we want to see how many people we can bring there [to Japan] so he can just work with the company. Focus only on producing something in that time.
I would love to be able to do something more for Nadhirah [Rahmat] and [Wong] Shan Tie. I mean, there are these really incredible dance festivals across the world that I would love to be a part of, you know, that people [will] see the name and the brand of Malaysia with work that really speaks of Malaysia. We’re struggling a little bit to produce that kind of work. It requires a lot of time, a lot of space to dream and to imagine and to research and then to rehearse. Right? And then when you’re so busy trying to make ends meet and picking up these extra gigs because, you know, bills have to be paid, and it’s the reality of trying to sustain yourself in a professional way that it takes away from that time.
Bilqis
Do you still want to choreograph?
Joseph
Yes! I’ve actually had rehearsals with the company on a potentially new work. But I’ve just had so much fun being in the studio, rehearsing two to 3 hours each week. Artistic juices are flowing, but it’s a bit rusty, you know, but I want to get in there, and, yes, I have already started. I’m quite excited. I’m going to do something that draws from the exhibition that I attended of Rajinder Singh’s work. It’s called Saffron Surrender. But I want to look at our own experiences with our own relationship with our colonization and colonial masters, and what have we lost? What have we gained? Stories from our forefathers and so on. So while his was all about the Sikh experience, I want to bring it and make it our own and see where it goes one day. I don’t know. So whether it’s a short work, whether it’s a long work, I have no idea yet.
On the subject of ASK Dance Company, my dream—I’ll just put it out there, send it out to the universe—I’d like to have our own building or shoplot. A really beautiful space that has maybe two studios, maybe like a little black box space, a larger space that we can use for rehearsal and informal showing, and maybe even a place for artists in residence to come and stay, like a little apartment or something.
And then, of course, on the ground floor, we must have a coffee shop, right, that serves these wonderful cakes…and a library!
Bilqis
Well, no point having small dreams, right? If anyone can make this happen, I’m sure you can.
Joseph
Certainly gonna try, Bilqis. And, you know, my motto is still the same, you know: survive, succeed, or die trying. My ambitions are still… I really wanted to be known as a company that produces very good work. So this year we’re doing the Menempa Tari Tradisi, the one that we did in ASWARA in 2022, which is a combination… We bring the Sekolah Seni, we bring a university, and then we put everybody together and have a real nice muhibah show, you know. [That will be] end of November in Sarawak. So, you know, we’re really working hard to bring things out of Kuala Lumpur. We did [20]23 in Sabah in Tuaran…
And next year we’re going to produce a Malay dance show. That’s my new baby. For 20 years that I was in ASWARA, I feel that we did so many wonderful shows there, right from Jamu to Main Zapin. So that’s why I came up with Tabula Rasa this year, because I really wanted a new brand to be associated with the dance company.
Bilqis
Yes. Tell me about Tabula Rasa.
Joseph
It’s a clean slate, right? As the name suggests. And I think we can be incredibly creative when we begin with a clean slate and not have too many restrictions, maybe, or too many parameters about what contemporary dance could be and so on. So Tabula Rasa will always be that kind of production that I think people can come and they know they’re going to see something that’s going to be really fascinating. They may not like everything that they see, but I think they can then understand, ah, contemporary dance can be so much.
But I also want to do work, for example, take it to the museums, you know, take it outside, do [it] in different venues and different spaces, and maybe work with different ideas and different themes, you know, and I hope that in every show, I’ll be able to bring at least one international artist, which is what we did for the first one. So I met Surjit in [20]23 and just fell in love with his work and his personality. And I have nurtured, I think, three or four Chinese women in Hong Kong who were my students over the years. And they are just incredible dancers and incredible thinkers. And they come from mainland China and, you know, to push contemporary dance the way they have, when they were given that space and given that opportunity… And I want to bring them here and do a show with them here. And also maybe one Tabula Rasa can be all about women, you know.
So that production, Tabula Rasa, will always be somewhere that I explore contemporary ideas that I have and maybe also the opportunity to work with people that I want to work with: people that I’ve met in Hong Kong or anywhere, you know, that I think will be very valuable here in Malaysia for people to watch and see and experience.
And then I want to do this Malay dance production because we’ve done so much work with Malay dance. But right now, ADC doesn’t have a Malay dance show. So I want to show and showcase Malay dance in a way that dare I say that has not been presented before. I want people to understand, to appreciate the beauty, the value, and see that it can be seen as very high art. We’re still working on the framework right now and putting ideas together, but I don’t just want it to be individual items. You know, I want to put some kind of narrative, but not something that’s too much of a story.
And we’ll still do, hopefully, Crossing Borders in Bharatanatyam. I want to keep pushing these barriers of, you know, non-Indians doing Indian dance. But it’s not just about the race, right? It’s just about being a very, very good Bharatanatyam dancer. And Shankar [Kandasamy, from Temple of Fine Arts] was at a conference with me the other day, and he said that it’s so different working with trained bodies [like the ADC dancers] that come in every day and do class, and he really loves it. And he says that that allows him to extend his choreography so much more.
So back to ADC. I want us to be seen producing really special work, maybe two productions a year, one traditional, one contemporary, and then international shows, tours. Maybe a little bit too much, because the teaching workshops—
Bilqis
And then your new space—
Joseph
And my new space, and then Taylor’s University. Yeah. And then, you know, doing research and all, in the meantime, hopefully doing a little bit of writing…
Bilqis
I’m sure you’ll have so much time for that!
Joseph
Yeah, I love it! You know, this is what I live for. I enjoy it, you know, but I’m also going to take time for myself, you know: go and visit friends and family, travel the world more. I’m learning how to play tennis! I started lessons, and I love it. The real highlight of my day. I want something that is away from dance as well that I can enjoy.
I’m really, really having fun right now. I mean, some universities have spoken to me about whether I want to come in and do some part-time work because aside from academic administration and management that I did in APA, I think the greatest lessons I learned were in conducting postgraduate studies. And being that postgraduate leader was a huge learning experience for me, because in Malaysia I didn’t do that much of it. So Hong Kong was incredible. And practice research—so they don’t necessarily say practice as research, in research, with research, led research, blah, blah, blah, but just “practice research”. And I realized that that’s the kind of person I am, really, because I do a lot of research that then evolves into some kind of a stage work and presentation.
And I learned that I am good at guiding the students to understand what they are trying to discover for themselves and not impose my kind of perspective or my own aesthetics at all. I enjoy the process and really encouraging them to discover what they want to make work about. I really want to spend time working somewhere in some institution, I suppose, imparting this knowledge and this skill.
And we did start a little bit in Tabula Rasa. I met them a couple of months before that. I gave them, like, a form that they would have to fill and talk about their ideas, and what were the questions that were driving their work…
MFA students given exposure to international artists and academics, at HKAPA. IMAGE: Dr. Joseph Gonzales
Bilqis
So the choreographers you were working with for Tabula Rasa, in addition to the international choreographer Surjit Nongmeikapam, were Raziman Sarbini, who had been your student at ASWARA, Zulkarnain Zuber and Nadhirah Rahmat, who are currently dancers with ASK Dance Company, and Chai Vivan, who had once been a company dancer.
Joseph
Yeah, I like her work, and I think it has a lot of potential, which is really a little bit out of the box, you know? And I was looking for somebody who did work like that, and I often felt that she had very good ideas, but she never had enough time to actually allow the thoughts and ideas to percolate and then the work to really mature enough, you know?
So I was hoping that this would be an opportunity to guide them through that. And then we had a few sessions of feedback, looking at videos, looking at their work in progress, and talking to them. But of course, I want to do it in much more hands on when I’m doing this work that I’m [choreographing myself] with the company. That’s what I’m imposing on myself that I have to do and have the discipline to do it the way that I told my students to do it. So it’s a real, real test, you know, and I’m finding it very exciting and very difficult and very challenging because you’re so used to going in there and making movement, you know—
Bilqis
And having a very short time frame to get something on stage! I think this would be very beneficial in general for the dance community. I often feel like now we have these institutions like ASWARA, like UPSI, which produce movers of an extremely high caliber, but not necessarily thinkers. And so to have a really structured context in which they can be trained to think and to apply ideas to dance would be very beneficial to the whole community.
Joseph
So, yes, I think this idea of nurturing in a very intense way… You know, Malaysians, we just love our certificates and our degrees, and, you know, parents love it. We understand the value of it, so on. But it doesn’t always translate into people who are actually thinking deeply about the work that they’re doing, you know. So I want to be able to do that as well, you know… so we’ll see.
Bilqis
You have a huge number of things that you want to achieve, many of which I imagine you will be able to achieve. Looking at the Malaysian dance community or the Malaysian arts community, what do you wish could happen that you can’t single-handedly make happen?
Joseph
Definitely I can’t handle it by myself, right? But to be able to have a clearer system of fund giving, grant-giving—while it has increased a lot compared to ten years ago, but it’s still a bit sporadic. The information about the grants or the awardees aren’t given in a timely manner. So I think it’s very frustrating sometimes when you receive an award and then, you know, you have to produce the work in the next two months. So I think there needs to be a bit of longevity and perhaps they can think about giving grants that will extend for three to five years. That allows the dance company or the individual to do the work and produce the work over a certain period of time, and also the sort of peace of mind, knowing that they have that grant there rather than having to apply for it every time.
Taking time for life long learning: MA in Cultural Management at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. IMAGE: Dr. Joseph Gonzales
Bilqis
So what else do you feel you would want to happen in the Malaysian arts environment?
Joseph
We’ve talked about having arts education in schools, not necessarily as a compulsory subject, but that kind of exposure. Also the accessibility to funding for scholarships for postgraduate studies, international training for scholarships for summer programs, intensives and so on, made available to students everywhere. And they don’t have to be only students from universities. They could be going to, you know, the private ballet schools or the private dance schools and anyone could apply for this. I think that is so important so that parents will allow or feel that it’s actually quite acceptable or safe for students to go into… their children to try being a professional dancer for two or three or four years maybe, and then say, okay, this is out of my system, I’ve had a great time and now I want to go and study medicine or something.
You know, we need to just make the people who make these decisions aware. So maybe I can play a role in it, you can play a role in it, and we can talk to people like we have been doing for the last 30 years.
Bilqis
I’ve always admired you—and I’ve told you this before—for your enthusiasm and how you keep the energy to talk to government, telling the same things over and over again, to different people, sometimes to the same people, to convince them of the importance of supporting this kind of work. Where do you get that inspiration to be able to get up in the morning and do it again?
Joseph
And actually I’m really surprised that I still have that energy and the enthusiasm and everything that you have said! I kind of live for this, Bilqis, you know; I love it so much and I love making it happen and I love seeing it happen and I love things coming to fruition and knowing that I had a little part at least to making this happen and to clearing the path for some people.
When we started Akademi Seni [Kebangsaan, precursor to ASWARA] I learned really we stand on the shoulders of these giants that came before us. Whether they are the Anugerah Seni recipients like Khatijah Awang or Krishen Jit, we stand on their shoulders. You know, they clear the path. People who have that kind of passion and dedication have to keep doing it and I believe we can maybe make it a little bit better for the next generation. I think we already have.
Bilqis
You’ve impacted a huge number of people. Do you ever consider your legacy or you’re just very forward-focused?
Joseph
Very forward-focused. I get very uncomfortable actually when asked about my legacy. I don’t… I am also very aware that everything is transient, that nothing is permanent and I’m very, very alright with it being impermanent. I’m just doing it because I can and I want to now.
Also, you know, I want to do a Fulbright. I feel that I’d like to work in America for maybe three months or six months and talk about Malaysian work, you know, what people are doing in and what Bharatanatyam is like… And I look at the types of papers that I’ve written also. It’s kind of a wide range of work and I’d like to share that.
You know, I wish that there was greater abundance. I don’t come from a family that’s very well to do. So there isn’t this big… any kind of a trust fund given to me. And I was thinking of my mum and my dad. You know, they came from little villages in India and the biggest thing for my mum was when we moved to the house in PJ, in Section 20, 115—she said, “I never dreamed that I would live in a brick house.” Yes! And you know, it really, really makes me choke up when I think about that. And that’s our background, you know. And I lived in Sentul Pasar in a wooden house that, where the toilet was outside…
You know, I just wish I’m able to do something for dancers who are less privileged, I think so to see all these boys and girls who are now lecturers in universities who really had quite average [backgrounds]—
Bilqis
Whose lives have been changed completely—
Joseph
Completely! And I think that is so meaningful, you know, they would never have imagined it for themselves.
And I must say, I’m getting a lot of pleasure from doing this. I’m not being terribly humble, but I really don’t like adulation. You know, I did Buddhist Studies when I was in Hong Kong.
Bilqis
Yes. I noticed you now have a Master’s in Buddhist Studies. What drove you to that endeavour?
Joseph
Looking for peace, I think, in a very troubled world! It was around the time of COVID also. I mean—my mother will strike me down from Heaven for sure, because…
Bilqis
A good Catholic boy…
Joseph
A good Catholic boy. Yeah, but I find that religion also is another area where we’re so colonised. And so my family is a very typical Malayali Catholic family. You know, none of us even have Indian names! I feel we’ve lost something because of that.
So I was searching… and I find a lot of what the teachings are brought me a lot of peace and tranquillity and stability. And so I kind of now blend the two, you know; so I attend both church and go to the temple.
Bilqis
So how has this changed you as a person?
Joseph
Being less judgmental? I think that’s very important for me.
Bilqis
Don’t we need to retain some degree of personal judgment in order to be able to exercise critical analysis?
Joseph
Absolutely. Especially in the work that we do. So we need to be able to figure out what is good and why it works and why it doesn’t work. So I think I need to constantly find that space where we are talking about what is the work saying? And is it saying it well? And we mustn’t lose that, I think. But then how do you…
And I think I’ve not been too bad at trying to guide students to see it for themselves or an artist without crushing them or destroying their sort of sense of achievement and their creativity. Critical analysis is absolutely vital in the field of the arts, you know, and then I think it’s also very important to be able to convey that to the audiences. How do you educate the audiences about what is good or what we perceive to be good, rather than them just coming to watch a show because their friend is in it, or their daughter, or their son or whoever’s in the show, you know?
With Indonesian lengger dancer Rianto in an impromptu performance. IMAGE: Dr. Joseph Gonzales
Bilqis
Would you consider moving into a dramaturgical role, giving critical responses to choreographers during their process before their work goes on stage?
Joseph
Yes. Yes, definitely. Just engaging in maybe not necessarily such a formal way, even, you know—inviting people whose opinions you value and who you trust will give you an honest opinion, without intending to be offensive at all…
And of course, we might be a senior in the industry, but we also have to be open and be able to accept the feedback that other people might bring to watching your work, and not feel that you’re above that. So I think it’s at any level, that kind of feedback and that kind of session would be very useful.
So those are some of the other things I think could make this better. Trying to develop audiences, sort of bringing my audiences to watch a Dua Space [Dance Theatre] work and Dua Space bringing theirs to ours, or ours to Temple of Fine Arts and vice versa. I don’t think there’s enough of it, you know. And also to get the students and the dancers to think that it’s important to go and visit galleries, and to look at painting and to see what it means to you and how you respond to it.
Bilqis
I’ve always thought of you—aside from being a dancer, a choreographer, an educator—as an impresario, in the same way as Diaghilev in the 1920s. So when you say this, you remind me of Diaghilev forcing Nijinsky to go to museums as a way of refining his choreography. The same method!
Joseph
Yes. Some basic truths are eternal, aren’t they? They’re very valuable, and that value hasn’t changed at all. Where a dancer or an artist derives his inspiration from is very, very important. And how one art form can influence another is very important. There’s so much to discover, I think… still… right? [laughs]
Bilqis
Thank you, Dr. Joseph Gonzales, for speaking to me today, and for giving us all more hope for the future of dance in Malaysia.
This is the third part of a series highlighting the continuing contributions and exciting new pathways of the pioneers in Malaysian contemporary dance. The series considers issues of succession, creativity and novelty, as well as practices of archiving, documentation and restaging. This series was completed under the ArtsEquator Fellowship. Views expressed are solely those of the writer. Read the previous installment here or read the next installment here.
Bilqis Hijjas is the founding editor of Critics Republic. Formerly a producer and organizer in contemporary dance, she believes the main purpose of criticism is to enhance the audience’s appreciation of art.